Consumer Tribunal Form 1 filed

I have submitted the consumer tribunal form 1 for filing against BVC. You can find the files at the following location:
Files

BVC has since file in form 2 for defense, also available at the same location.

I would like to collect some comments on the response from BVC. What is your opinions?

My problem with their reply is it is all in malay. It will take some time for me to relate.

I think what they are basically saying is, it is all in the contract. And the contract says they can do whatever they like such as take out any hotels based on the management discretion and there's nothing we can do about it. Is there a law that says consumers are not lawyers and during the purchase of such a membership, this facts are not being explained to the potential buyers. Anyway, the buyers were pushed to make the decisions on the same day or else lose the special discounts. No way, a person can digest and understand all the small prints of the agreement.

LuckySkunk wrote:My problem with their reply is it is all in malay. It will take some time for me to relate.

I think what they are basically saying is, it is all in the contract. And the contract says they can do whatever they like such as take out any hotels based on the management discretion and there's nothing we can do about it. Is there a law that says consumers are not lawyers and during the purchase of such a membership, this facts are not being explained to the potential buyers. Anyway, the buyers were pushed to make the decisions on the same day or else lose the special discounts. No way, a person can digest and understand all the small prints of the agreement.

Ha ha...me having the same headache!!

And to add to what Luckyskunk's comments. Much of the terminology was totally alien to us when we join. So even if we had been able to read and digest most of the Agreement, comprehension was a totally different matter!! Hey, I bet you. Even now. Try to ask some "old" members what they understand by Affiliate Resorts etc etc and see the results! Eg. KL Plaza clubhouse. Even if they had emphasized that it was only an additional benefit, we would still not be able to comprehend the implication at that time, and even not thereafter. We all only understood the implication when it was removed!! That is the honest truth from my perspective.

I think BVC is not replying to your claims to the Tribunal. There are misrepresentations of fundamental terms (written and oral) between BVC and you as stated by you in your claims such as loss of holiday resorts! They are not replying to this point.

Instead BVC’s defense merely refers to the bookings of rooms to justify the performance of their services and in fact such services are expected to be given to all members as their rights and entitlements and therefore you can argue it is not an acceptable reply to your claim.

Suggest you give a reply to BVC and re-emphasis the fundamental breach of agreement concerning the loss of holiday resorts in such a short period of time and no replacement so far?

You know what guys? This is kinda familiar, isn't it? The fuel price went up, so does the rice, the roti canai, and a million other things. And when the fuel came down, the prices does not follow. Times are bad now, so BVC is doing whatever it takes (at our expense of course) to retain their profit. Let's say, things got turned for the better in a couple of years, BVC is not gonna put all the benefits back. You can bet your bottom dollar. I hope that we can find some ways to stop the potential dreamers from being conned. Like putting big billboards that says "Stay away from BVC!!!" But seriously, are we putting up another response to the BVC reply to Fun's complain to the tribunal?

I have prepared another response with the help and references of all online posting as evidence. Now, the only thing missing will be witnesses, members who share the same grievances (which I believe everyone does?) and is willing to voice it out during the hearing.

kkfun wrote:I have submitted the consumer tribunal form 1 for filing against BVC. You can find the files at the following location:
Files

BVC has since file in form 2 for defense, also available at the same location.

I would like to collect some comments on the response from BVC. What is your opinions?

I think what is most important is YOU have submitted your case. You are the plaintiff and BVC is the defendant. It is up to them to prove that what you are claiming against them is not true or valid. You, on the other hand have to substantiate your claims with evidence and proofs. Try to stick to issues you are able to show proof. Dont go into areas like increase of maintenance fees etc. Stick to the main issues of promises they have not kept.

My two bits. One more bit I wish to share with you in private, either at the Tribunal or I may call you before the BIG day.

Rgds.

Thanks Patrick. you can also email me at my gmail.

Gents,

I have submitted a more detailed filing, not so much of a response to BVC's defense letter, but a more focus account of the main issue i.e. lost of privileges.

The file & evidence list has been added to the liaison website for reference. Please view it here.

Please post any comments here, in this forum.

I do believe mine is not the only case. Fellow members can use mine as a reference if filling against BVC at the consumer's tribunal.

What was the outcome of the hearing?

Did it go well?

dwoon wrote:What was the outcome of the hearing?

Did it go well?

I also would like to know trhe status of hearing , either we win or lose does not matter, please post the result

Hi all,

The hearing is over. I am now awaiting the official report on the hearing results first before posting it here to avoid any confusion later. Please bear with me for a few more days.

Fun’s Final submission to the Consumer Tribunal together with the Swiss Garden International Vacation Club case had been uploaded to our Berjaya Vacation Club Liaison website. I like to add some comments here. Fun’s Final submission is a well written submission which any one of us can use as a reference for filing in to the Consumer tribunal especially if we feel the loss of holiday resorts is the main contention with Berjaya Vacation Club and enough reason for us to claim for a refund of our money.

Swiss Garden case was also about loss of Holiday resorts and the learned President decided against Swiss Garden and ordered a refund of the money based on the proportionate remaining years left of the membership. By the way, there is a clause in the Prospectus which provide for this refund of money base on the same point. However, not all Presidents in the Consumer tribunal may decide the same way. If anyone is not happy with the President’s decision, the complainant can always file to the High Court for Judicial review and there is a time limit- I think it is about 40 days from date of decision (please verify with your lawyer)

Suggest you guys read it, know your rights, and perhaps add your comments.

Fun. I have to hand it to you. Very well written fact based response. After reading all of that, I'm not sure if you're a layman like you said you are. You can earn a degree and get accepted into the bar with that kind of artifact. That tribunal president is obviously a moron or only siding BVC for some unhealthy reason. One can be very suspicious about his motive. If you don't get your compensation, I'll be very disappointed with the justice dept here. If you up to it, I may even hire you as my consultant to get mine back. I've paid in full because I joined way back in 2000. KUDOS!!!

Yes, I certainly don't mind hiring Sien to help get a refund.

Actually, for me personally.... I'll be satisfied with the refund. If the vacation club is going down the drain, it's best to be the first few to get out.

If Sien's tribunal case can serve as a reference, then I'd too like to have the same deal if possible.

Sien, appreciate your advise. Can you also post the reply from BVC as to how they did the calculation? It would be very useful to me to use as a reference. What I read was the TTPM-final which you made reference to BVC's calculations. I can't seem to find the official reply from BVC. if its inconvenient to post it in the forum, would it be possible to send it to me?

Thanks

By the way, the tribunal case is Fun's case and not Sien's case.

For your info, Berjaya room cost calculation is already uploaded to the BVC liaison website.

Fun, the Tribunal Ground of Judgement on Berjaya Vacation Club case and the Minutes dated 18 May of the tribunal were uploaded on the BVC liaison website.

According to the minutes, the President says, "Mr.Fun has built up a valid case for the termination of the contract based on misrepresentation and so on..."

Perhaps, you can let us have your comments how you feel about the ground of judgement or awards?

Sien

Hi,

Thanks to Sien for loading the files.

I don't fully agree with the outcome of the tribunal, particularly the ground of judgment. A judicial review has been filed to review the whole case. This will take some time and hopefully, a much clearer answer can be given.

Looking at the refund, the 10% admin fee imposed is unfair since the reason is valid for the termination of the contract. Further more, checking the latest prospectus, RM 6 million was collected in maintenance fees alone yearly. I would expect the calculation of refund to be based on the prospectus which is similar to the Swiss Garden calculation.

From the minutes, I can see the President agreed on 2 important points. Point 1 on May 8 hearing clause 10 in respect of the Prospectus clause regarding additional benefit to Timeshare members brought up by Puan Faridah of Berjaya: “The hotels and Resorts division of Berjaya Land Bhd reserves the right to substitute or add to the above list”. President said to Puan Faridah of BVC, “Puan, add = tambah, substitute = ganti, remove was not mentioned”.

Point 2 on May 18 hearing, clause 9, President says, Mr. Fun has built up a valid case for the termination of contract based on misrepresentation and so on,” and clause 15, when Fun asked president whether BVC breached the terms of the contract and the President agrees by saying “that is true”.

It looks like your disagreement is concerning the Awards. I 100% agree with you. I believe we as BVC members face the same main issue as your case on loss of holiday resorts and Klang valley members loss of club facilities. We just have to wait for the High court judicial review whether the President imposition of the 10% admin fee is fair or not and also in respect of the President decision on refund calculation not following the Prospectus or Swiss Garden case.

If we file our case now to protect our rights because of time limitation of 3 years for Consumer tribunal from Berjaya course of action i.e. removal of holiday resorts, I think we can request the President at the hearing to hold his decision pending the High Court Judicial review.

However, time limitation is 6 years in respect of class action suit against Berjaya as
suggested by Chan Yat Yee. Chan, as a lawyer, can you confirm whether the time limitation is 6 years?

The judicial review has been set on 02 Oct 2009 at KL High Court. Will keep update on results.

The venue will be at
Mahkamah Tinggi Kuala Lumpur
Kompleks Mahkamah Kuala Lumpur
Aras 2, Jalan Duta, 50592 Kuala Lumpur

Time is at 9.00am
Date on 02 Oct 2009

Those interested are welcome for the hearing.

Hi,

Sorry about the lack of update lately. After all filing done, this time, the actual hearing is to take place for the Judicial Review. Details as follows:

Case number:
R4-25-208-2009

Venue:
Mahkamah Tinggi Malaya
Kompleks Mahkamah Kuala Lumpur
Jalan Duta
50592 Kuala Lumpur

Date:
23 Nov 2009

Time:
09:00 am

Your attendance in support is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
FunKK

Dear members,

I just got to know that this coming Monday session is a "sebutan" or mentioning of the judicial review, thus it is not the actual hearing. For this round I just only need to make myself available. I suppose the actual hearing will be after this. I will post the details once available.

Thanks for the show of support.

Regards,
FunKK

kkfun wrote:Hi,

Thanks to Sien for loading the files.

I don't fully agree with the outcome of the tribunal, particularly the ground of judgment. A judicial review has been filed to review the whole case. This will take some time and hopefully, a much clearer answer can be given.

kkfun wrote:Looking at the refund, the 10% admin fee imposed is unfair since the reason is valid for the termination of the contract. Further more, checking the latest prospectus, RM 6 million was collected in maintenance fees alone yearly. I would expect the calculation of refund to be based on the prospectus which is similar to the Swiss Garden calculation.

After long reading of all documents in tribunal case, I too aren’t agree with the judgement passed.

Admin Fees

Aren’t the Judge gives the impression that every tribunal case, there is always admin fees in which the complainant must bear? The Judge must bear in mind that the Termination of Contract is due to BVC faults which it have been giving false information all along after all these years (not in its 1st year or 2nd year since its incorporate).

Therefore its not at a fault of the complainant and the justification of 10% is not viable at all (if not mistaken in the agreement, the transfer of membership, the admin should not charge more than 10% - this doesn’t mean that it must charge it to the max at all).

*Plus on the Fun’s Tribunal Judgement on Clause 13, 10% admin fees is deducted based on prevailing market price (aren’t it supposed to follow the current market price for this membership, in which shouldn’t even be determine by BVC itself). Those frustrated members already start selling their membership way below its original price i.e. RM 20,000 (Original : RM 38,000) yet I don’t think there is someone willing to take the offer at all.

**The above (*) serves as assumption

As judgement pass on FKK’s case.

The Judge is giving me the ideas of not to utilize my entitlement at all so that I can claim more from BVC itself.

This is due to I’m only utilize the following entitlement : -
(i) KL Plaza – 1 night (2 rooms)
(ii) Berjaya Meranti Suites – 1 night (2 rooms)
(iii) Baiyoke Sky Hotel – 4 nights (2 rooms) with surcharge

I wish that they could provide me the calculation if I’m to file my case.

Gifts

The funny things are that the gifts provided are stated to be included in the package. These statements amazed me, I was wondering if BVC provides a flight tickets (assume RM 4,000 per pax), if I didn’t utilize it, then its my fault? Therefore I need to bear the cost? What if the gifts provided comes with certain conditions that cause me not to utilize it? I’ve got interested more because they throw in 4 flights tickets to me (yet didn’t let me know that I need to stay in certain hotels in which the rates is so phreaking expensive – need to check whether I still have the documents stating the hotels price or not).

Conclusions

Who would subscribe this membership of RM 38k for the following :-
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxiZXJqYXlhdmFjYXRpb25jbHVibGlhaXNvbnxneDo1ZmUwODEwNDNjOTg1NGU1

(i) Berjaya Tioman Beach Resort, Tioman Island
(ii) Kuala Lumpur Plaza Suites, Kuala Lumpur
(iii) Berjaya Tioman Suites, Tioman Island
(iv) Menara Greenview Apartments, Penang Island
(v) Meranti Park, Bukit Tinggi

Please note that number of rooms available for members booking also are not stated there. If you see the number of rooms available for members, are you not going to think twice before you sign up? Especially when the number of members reaches 10,000?

Lastly, sorry for the long winding ranting and also my poor English.